Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

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PutzBoy78
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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by PutzBoy78 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 22:25

the other argument against banning has been that the rewards are BOC and therefore not directly linked to profit. Two things to consider is

1) advantage from early boon unlocks. In PVE this is trivial, in elite PVP however... i don't know, I don't pvp
2) early access to elite gear including +5 rings, etc
3) The lure market. I don't follow the lure market closely but I've seen people trying to sell T3 lures for up to 3M AD (30 SMOPs). There is definite profit to be had

Maybe a more interesting topic is what should or will be done with Teddy who participated in this. As mentioned earlier, why didn't he alert his contacts as a moderator of this exploit. Did his role as a moderator contribute to the knowledge of this workaround going public, etc.

Since the companion drops totems from hunts, this could have been a major contributor int he inflated market on trophies. Until this went public, I couldn't understand why people were spending 100k per fang for progress that you could easily cap anyhow. In one week you really only needed 5 fangs to hit the totem cap for hunts.

I don't think people were farming the dailys for the 1 totem, it would be quicker to farm hunts if you were buying trophies. Then to recoup your investment you could early sell T3 lures and T2 trophies. Farming hunts would be a lot more bearable than dailys and you had unique equipment rewards or profitable trophies as rewards vs a single totem.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by j0Shi » Thu Aug 10, 2017 08:10

I think there's no question that there's some sort of advantage gained. Cryptic however never cared about economic advantages by exploiting unless you were able to pull stuff out of thin air (Resonators etc.). What people should be afraid of is that they unintentionally were able to advance or even complete the campaign much faster than intended. That's Arcane Reservoir territory and has been punished in the past. That being said, the team that made the decision in Mod 1 is probably long gone so it's very well possible that the current devs come to a completely different conclusion how to handle this.
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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by PutzBoy78 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 17:32

well and to be fair, i don't think its a dev decision. Since it should be PW and Cryptic community manager, marketing, and leadership deciding what the reaction should be.


Similarly i doubt its a dev issue that caused the exploit. We attribute a lot to the code monkeys that lie on what's most likely more of a game developer issue, community manager issue, and of course leadership issue. I would assume developers have almost zero say on how this is handled. Similar to how these mistakes happen. As an example I would assume the process for developing this companion was something like:

1) we need a zen pack for this mod, what can we put into it?
2) meeting to draft mod pack ideas including marketing, foss (leadership/game development), and community manager. Some person says lets make another companion that provides bonus campaign currency.
3) Team from 2 draft the idea. Send it to developers for technical review and scoping
4) Technical specification sent back to team 2 for review/approval
5) Technical spec sent to art for design and technical spec sent to intern chuck for coding
6) Then it gets tested

In that scenario one of two things happened.

1. Step 3 developers didn't clearly define in the technical review/scoping that the companion would be subject to the currency caps. Problem was then missed in step 4 because no one challenged that the spec was not thorough enough. Then intern chuck gets blamed for because he coded it per the spec and didn't have the experience and knowledge to see there was a potential design issue. It's really not intern chucks fault, it's managements fault for not providing clear direction. And if I'm intern chuck I'd say exactly that, I coded what you asked for, you just asked for incomplete code

2) The technical document was thorough and the developer missed it. Then QA missed it by not using the technical document as the basis for a solid test plan. In this scenario management is not to blame other than hiring unqualified people. Intern chuck and qa both should be accountable for the mistake


If we were betting, I would bet on scenario 1 being the case given the history of cryptic

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by beckylunatic » Thu Aug 10, 2017 17:43

One of Lion's comments in the discussion threads was probably the best summation of the subject from my perspective. "I'm surprised it worked at all."

Because I can think of two other companions that provide bonus currency. (Have I missed any?)

The Simril Holiday Helper's bonus Lights didn't work. And assuming they do fix it, I have no idea how it's supposed to provide a bonus 10% to rewards like 2 Light of Simril (!). If the Chultan Hunter is a model, then apparently 10% of 1 gets rounded up to 1?

The Stronghold Cleric only actually works on HE rewards, I've heard. Same (bad! and broken?) limitation as 2xInfluence events.

So if they tried to make the Chultan Hunter work better than prior companions, but made it work too well in the process... somehow that doesn't come as much of a surprise.
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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by TheHappyLion » Thu Aug 10, 2017 18:02

Yes, that's where I was coming from. Broken Zen Store items are a particular sore spot with me. The fact that these items are often a priority fix when they give an unintended advantage to players but are not fixed when they are flat out not working at all strikes me as being worse than bad business but outright wrongdoing. You are just shit out of luck if something you paid for doesn't work. No returns or exchanges. These occurrences, more than any other, have had me on the brink of quitting altogether on several occasions.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by PutzBoy78 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 22:21

beckylunatic wrote:One of Lion's comments in the discussion threads was probably the best summation of the subject from my perspective. "I'm surprised it worked at all."

Because I can think of two other companions that provide bonus currency. (Have I missed any?)

The Simril Holiday Helper's bonus Lights didn't work. And assuming they do fix it, I have no idea how it's supposed to provide a bonus 10% to rewards like 2 Light of Simril (!). If the Chultan Hunter is a model, then apparently 10% of 1 gets rounded up to 1?

The Stronghold Cleric only actually works on HE rewards, I've heard. Same (bad! and broken?) limitation as 2xInfluence events.

So if they tried to make the Chultan Hunter work better than prior companions, but made it work too well in the process... somehow that doesn't come as much of a surprise.

That simril helper was supposed to increase lights dropping by 40%. The wording is a bit weird but it's not like a 40% increase of what you get, but more of a chance to drop additional lights in general. Of course drops usually have some form of ICD so even if it worked, it could have an ICD built in so that your actual increase over time isn't 40%. I would put its wording more closely related to the Mage Slayer which gives a higher drop rate of portal stones, not an increase of portal stones. its kind of confusing

The logic on the hunter sounds more similar to Grazilaxx but with Grazilaxx they gave a flat increase in drops of quest currency not a % increase. That would obviously make a ton more sense in this case where 10% is always less than 1 with the exception of one weekly quest.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by beckylunatic » Thu Aug 10, 2017 22:47

Oh lawsy, there were a lot more of them than I remembered. Thanks for the correction on the intended drop rate for Simril too. I didn't confirm it prior to writing.

I really loathe this type of addition in general. It's not that I object to adding premiums or boosts for people who want to pay for them, but I do look side-eyed at the need for a different premium item for essentially every zone/type of content. Part of it too is that with my neurotype though, if I paid for any of these schemes, I might actually remember to use them when appropriate about half the time, the act of remembering would require Herculean effort (and I dislike having my mental load of must-remember added to in leisure activities), and I'd be furious with myself every time I forgot.

The simplest way for me to deal with that is to simply not buy any of it, so that's fine, but I still can't help feeling negatively towards these underlying precedents.
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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by TheHappyLion » Thu Aug 10, 2017 22:53

I get that, becky. People keep asking why I am always wearing my inscribed undies. My response is, of course, so I don't forget to put them on.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by beckylunatic » Thu Aug 10, 2017 23:04

Me too.

I don't mind the Siege Master though, because it helps all the time, and is made better while working the Influence grind, rather than only being good for one thing. (At the same time, I'm aware that this addition was objectionable to others since it was an outright pay-for-power item.)
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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by Bert » Fri Aug 11, 2017 00:18

I think you think too much Putz, everything we say will always be hypothetical on these matters.

I believe what happened was much simpler than what you described, they intentionally made a pet that would remove the totem weekly cap in anticipation of more sales from players willing to buy their campaign item to rush through the content.

From there, either the community would accept it as working as intended and/or would not make much fuss about it and it'd continue like it is now (or devs sneakily fix anyway later), or players would complain and ask for answers loud enough to have an official statement been made by PWE team to acknowledge it is not working as it should, and have it fixed soon after its release.

In both case, the profit has been made and the players interested in completing the campaign sooner than others got their thrill rush, everyone's happy. To me it's pretty obvious and I feel I'm repeating myself by saying this again as if it wasn't clear enough the first time. I'll refrain from posting again to avoid the discussion entering in cycle.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by Bert » Fri Aug 11, 2017 00:27

Julia wrote:Hi everyone. I was able to get an answer this AM and the companion is NOT working properly. A fix will be going out asap.
inb4 poison arrow skill was giving too much poison and now it's fixed.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by PutzBoy78 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 01:35

Bert wrote:I think you think too much Putz, everything we say will always be hypothetical on these matters.

I believe what happened was much simpler than what you described, they intentionally made a pet that would remove the totem weekly cap in anticipation of more sales from players willing to buy their campaign item to rush through the content.

From there, either the community would accept it as working as intended and/or would not make much fuss about it and it'd continue like it is now (or devs sneakily fix anyway later), or players would complain and ask for answers loud enough to have an official statement been made by PWE team to acknowledge it is not working as it should, and have it fixed soon after its release.

In both case, the profit has been made and the players interested in completing the campaign sooner than others got their thrill rush, everyone's happy. To me it's pretty obvious and I feel I'm repeating myself by saying this again as if it wasn't clear enough the first time. I'll refrain from posting again to avoid the discussion entering in cycle.
Because giving them credit for a plan like this is far more than I'm willing to do. Stealing a quote from Robert Hanlon "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity".

And no, not everyone is happy with what happened. PWE may be, the exploiters may be (although I suspect some exploiters late to the party didn't appreciate spending 25k zen on a companion that will be worthless after the fix.

I'd also suspect that the profit from this is minimal as the people who have played long enough and run in elitist circles have plenty of AD from other sources and wouldn't need RL$ for this. The target for RL$ would be newer players trying to play catch up.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by Bert » Fri Aug 11, 2017 04:29

The other players should be because the advantage is not that much of consequence and it was confirmed exploit, so it will be fixed. Buying the companion from the ZEN market with $ or through ZAX is the same, someone had to spend zen bought with real money to make the purchase for you. The first days after mod 12 came out we could buy almost instantly ZEN at 500 or 499 each. The clog and time period before we get our zens is slowly returning to normal. It might have been not a huge profit but it definitely moved the market and produced some income for them more than if the "mistake" was not there.

Just an opinion. Who knows what's going in Cryptic's world ?

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by TheHappyLion » Fri Aug 11, 2017 05:55

I wouldn't ask them. They are probably just as clueless. I suspect it's a mixture of snake oil salesmanship and idiocracy.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by Bert » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:55

Buying the companion from the ZEN market with $ or through ZAX is the same, someone had to spend zen bought with real money to make the purchase for you. The first days after mod 12 came out we could buy almost instantly ZEN at 500 or 499 each.
Let me clear this up. It's not exactly the same, but PWE created a needed item for some players that make them purchase ZEN through ZAX or with money where they otherwise wouldn't.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by PutzBoy78 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 15:40

I'm certain support classes that could not get trex fangs to drop and yet saw the prices on them inflate to 100k because exploiters were driving up market prices don't appreciate it. I'm certain that people who farmed to the cap to only see someone else reach "first" before them aren't happy about it. I'm certain that people who had to wait to exchange ad to zen or bought zen at about market value to get something besides this companion are not happy about it. People being able to sit on their high horse and point fingers at exploiters will not make them happy... well it may for some. Most will only care about an unequal playing environment.

AD transferred to ZEN is definitely not the same as buying ZEN. Both in how customer treats you (I've been told by customer service that I wouldn't get support on a ZEN purchase because it wasn't made with RL$) but also in how it impacts the game. Marketing for ZEN sales is entirely different. I would contend that zen purchases that are transferred to AD are not impacted by stuff like this. People exchanging ZEN for AD are new players looking to acquire good from the AH, etc. They will do this weather the ZAX is at 240 or 250.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by Bert » Fri Aug 11, 2017 19:41

That is why it was quickly considered an exploit and fixed (well apparently still broken but it will be), and those who felt upset with the screw up should be happy about that decision. I don't care much as I see little to no-advantage to rush the jungle content, I think the boring long tedious farm outweighs the potential gains from buying the companion.

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Re: Community Manager Confirms Chultan Hunter is NOT working as Intended

Post by PutzBoy78 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 23:27

the rush was to sale lures at profit, gear gear and boons sooner for competitive advantage. Just because we all know we will end up at the same spot eventually is besides the point. The behavior was rewarded.

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