Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

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Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by j0Shi » Mon Sep 04, 2017 14:11

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by Pvu » Mon Sep 04, 2017 15:26

For me, this feels just like the Lostmauth set nerf back in 2016. I know Chris Matz, aka amenar, who dealt with nerfing the set, left Cryptic five months later, but I had hoped that the pain everyone involved went through would serve as a lessons learned and be prevented in the future. The difference in the two situations to me is at that time they allowed an exchange for the Lostmauth set, which was announced with Andy stating, "We know many an adventurer has spent a considerable amount of time and resources on upgrading the Lostmauth Set and understand the frustrations on upgrading another set from scratch." I'm not sure how they would repeat such a gesture this time around with the bonding changes. I'm sure I'll be back at NWO for the latest as the situation evolves.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by j0Shi » Mon Sep 04, 2017 15:36

There are several comparable incidents and the issue imho is always that they never follow up on introduced items / system / whatever. It's release and get assigned to the next project. I don't think they are doing it on purpose, but the time that elapses until they are finally able to revisit a specific type of content is annoying.
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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by PutzBoy78 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 01:06

Don't forget bondings were attacked once already but indirectly. The nerf to powershare of AC/DC in mod 10. So at least my mod 10 the devs were aware of the problem and using bandaids to put off an eventual fix. The nerf to bondings coming in 12b is not the end of the conversation, we will be here again discussing another fix until they turn the focus on diminishing returns and OP/DC power sharing.

Any item that or ability that gives a % of something will not scale well in the long run and makes a game difficult to manage. It's hard to go back and retest each of those items every time you introduce a new power creep to proactively identify areas where the interactions work better than intended.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by DarkStarr » Tue Sep 05, 2017 05:57

The issue I have with the claims that it's to fix "power creep" is that it's bullshit. Do the math and you will see with all R14s we will have almost the exact stats we have now. So in the end we will end up here in a half dozen months or so, depending on how expensive the upgrades are (which it currently looks like it will take some 20+ mil AD to go from all R12 to all R14). The issue is bonding + power share means the player gets power, then the companion does too which then triples it for a total of 4x the power share we should get.

But again they say it's because bonding itself is OP but really it's tiny compared to our overall stats, it's power share that adds so much more than it should. Then at the same time they are supposedly "toning down" bonding due to being OP they are then introducing items to boost damage on bosses by 50%, a companion that boosts DPS only on bosses, and ofc R13 Weapon Enchants that boost the additional hit damage over current Trans enchants.

I think the proper way to go about it, assuming devs want other runestones used, would be to simply give them the same amount of stats as bonding (so 1040 at R14) and then the same effect too. AKA all runestones work as "bonding". Maybe make the effect work half as effective or something when on an augment then you should have similar numbers from an augment which would make an augment more viable too.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the idea of the last several months of progress in terms of stats being removed from my characters. I think it would be better to address the real issue that is power share. We know it is sharing something like 4x the amount it should be, devs know this, it's been reported, its something that obviously isn't WAI.

We probably should look at having diminishing returns on some stats. The issue is without a new level cap and stat curve all they are doing is taking power (damage) away that we currently have and if they change stat curves then it suddenly changes something that we possibly had capped. It also would piss of a lot of players. Hence why the proper way would be to introduce new stat curves the next level cap increase and in the mean time for diversity they ought to make all runes work like bonding but at 50% effectiveness for augments, make it so companions only share their base power via bonding (so no power from DC/OP etc) and possibly look at increasing power share % if it's too low after the changes or change it to a % buff.

Honestly if they did what I suggested there would be very few pissed off players. They wouldn't be taking things we already have and it would be properly fixing power share which if they don't then in a few months we will be exactly where we are now.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by PutzBoy78 » Tue Sep 05, 2017 09:38

there must be some coding challenges with addressing power share. I thought they'd nerf companions like they did DC and only allow unbuffed stats to transfer. But that didn't happen. But as I said before, Diminishing Returns could solve all that. If going from 50K to 80K power only gave you a 10% increase in damage, the power share wouldn't even be an issue.

Augments should give more stats than bonding btw, I don't agree with your 50% logic. Bonded companions give you their attacks on top of the stats but at the expense of the possibility of death. In some cases those powers are pretty significant whether its the shadow demons dps, sellsword debuffs, or bards buffs. Giving those up won't be easy even if the stat share was the same between augment and bonded pets.

And there would be players pissed off, people qq all the time over nothing. People get off on it

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by DarkStarr » Tue Sep 05, 2017 16:49

Exactly, I thought they would fix companions too vs going after our actual stats. Somehow I doubt that there are serious issues with making it so companions don't get buffed by various powers. NPCs that "join" you don't get buffed do they?

And yea, it was a suggestion to keep augments viable, if they gave more stats plenty would swap because it would give fixed stats. Hell I would on OP in a heartbeat with new empowered runes and since it's an augment I'd get all the HP too. They need to be close and where exactly that balance is I can't say but that's the devs job to figure out if they want all runes used and all companions as a viable option. Maybe it's 50%, maybe 55% or 60%, thats for devs to decide but if all companions brought were debuffs then only those that run debuffs currently would keep their companions over an augment (IMO). I know I would go to an augment if I got more stats since I currently don't have a debuff companion and as I mentioned an augment with more stats overall than a bonded companion would mean that my OP could have like 400k+ HP and almost the same stats he has now. A bit less power but does it matter when the HP would easily make up for it?

Now on that note, making all companions viable is still a ways off. Companion gear's a bitch to get, may not have the right stats etc etc. I've already mentioned I think +5s should be removed with +4s getting boosted in ilvl and stats to take their place, all +3 and lower removed, the gear unbound and more stat combos and slot combos released so that you can buy them if you want via the AH. It's crap that you can't do that right now since you NEED companion gear and always will, summoned companion or augment. Then at least if you choose to run the skirmish you could resell the gear you get if it's not one you want/need and if you have your gear but like the content you could run it to resell to others.

But I mentioned this in my message to noworries, the devs have to give us variety. We can't make them and we can't correct the issues with all other runes and lots of companions going unused when all you give is one good rune and a shit ton of easy to acquire good rings but no other gear (in terms of ease of acquirement). Guess what happens, 3 ring companions become best because gearing them isn't a struggle.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by TheHappyLion » Tue Sep 05, 2017 17:45

The two biggest problems are uncapped power (duh) and companions that auto revive (often overlooked). Fix these two things and you can easily put the game back on track.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by DarkStarr » Wed Sep 06, 2017 01:35

Well.... this is what power share giving way more than intended looks like Image
and this char isn't even BiS. Most of that recovery is from artificers, same with the AP gain (obviously). This isn't even running all Radiant enchs in offense, in fact it's all Azures, with gear that doesn't give as much power as possible. It wouldn't surprise me if I could get that closer to 400k. Sure this was a bit of an anomaly, but ~270k was pretty common that run.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by TheHappyLion » Wed Sep 06, 2017 02:33

I have been on those runs. Uncapped power is just outright stupid for any game anywhere.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by j0Shi » Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:11

DC's are actually a pretty good example of self-inflicted wounds. I think we can agree that the current meta heavily favors the class. Yet from the sound of it they are going with TRs and GFs next in terms of balancing. Not that those don't have issues, but it's not really working down the priority list. They really have to do a much better job of monitoring and following up their own changes (multi DC got viable and overpowered with the class rework). Somebody should be working on DCs right now instead of TR and GF.
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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by TheHappyLion » Thu Sep 07, 2017 19:04

DCs are always the problem child.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by Elmster » Thu Sep 07, 2017 19:56

Power does have a diminishing return though in terms of relative damage increase. Adding 100k power to a naked toon will give you a 150% dps increase, while adding 100k power to a toon with 300k power (in above example) will give you a 30% dps increase. The high power stat is not what is making finely tunes groups tear through dungeons, it's the layering of multiplicative buffs, such as TI, eFF, eBTS, dDG, ITF coupled with high powershares. I'm on PS4 so I'm not really in touch with how the meta is shifting with the debuff changes, but I can actually see the AC or OP being the first to go from the meta groups, in favor of multiplicative buffs or faster debuff potential.

That aside, what IS a real problem with the high powershares in current dungeon groups is that it trivializes dps builds. You need to cap crit, max out weapon enchants and bondings and get the set bonuses/companions and a gwf or hr is ready to go. Having 10k more or less power, defense or recovery doesn't matter in a world where you are receiving 150k powershare and a constant stream of defensive stats and recovery through mount insignias.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by TheHappyLion » Thu Sep 07, 2017 21:04

I wasn't strictly talking about the power stat in particular. That would be moronic. I am talking about the need for an overall damage governor.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by Elmster » Fri Sep 08, 2017 04:11

A simple way of making layering of buffs less effective would be making all buffs additive then layering wouldn't cause an exponential increase in dps, instead a linear one.

However I'm not sure if that's really a desireable state. It means that we are favoring more a 5 individuals style of game play where paingiver indicates group utility, as opposed to a style that rewards building synergies and team play. It stands to reason that toons that favor group utility should do better than toons built for pure personal power in group content.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by PutzBoy78 » Fri Sep 08, 2017 15:56

Elmster wrote:Power does have a diminishing return though in terms of relative damage increase. Adding 100k power to a naked toon will give you a 150% dps increase, while adding 100k power to a toon with 300k power (in above example) will give you a 30% dps increase. The high power stat is not what is making finely tunes groups tear through dungeons, it's the layering of multiplicative buffs, such as TI, eFF, eBTS, dDG, ITF coupled with high powershares. I'm on PS4 so I'm not really in touch with how the meta is shifting with the debuff changes, but I can actually see the AC or OP being the first to go from the meta groups, in favor of multiplicative buffs or faster debuff potential.

That aside, what IS a real problem with the high powershares in current dungeon groups is that it trivializes dps builds. You need to cap crit, max out weapon enchants and bondings and get the set bonuses/companions and a gwf or hr is ready to go. Having 10k more or less power, defense or recovery doesn't matter in a world where you are receiving 150k powershare and a constant stream of defensive stats and recovery through mount insignias.
But its not a diminishing return. The damage increase is flat, the % of increase is what declines. That's not a diminishing return.
Elmster wrote:A simple way of making layering of buffs less effective would be making all buffs additive then layering wouldn't cause an exponential increase in dps, instead a linear one.

However I'm not sure if that's really a desireable state. It means that we are favoring more a 5 individuals style of game play where paingiver indicates group utility, as opposed to a style that rewards building synergies and team play. It stands to reason that toons that favor group utility should do better than toons built for pure personal power in group content.
And people keep referring to the ideal state being tank, healer, 3 dps. When really its something more complex that that. Like tank, healer, controller, aoe dps, single target dps. People think the fix is to nerf buff/debuffs but then you will end up with either all dps runs (5 gwf) or perhaps in harder content you get healer, tank, 2 gwf, 1 sw. It doesn't fix what everyone is qqing about, none of those people have problems getting groups. The real problem is tr and hr don't get into parties, and a nerf to buff/debuff could kill cws getting into parties also.

Not for me of course, i'm not that picky about my parties, lol

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by Elmster » Sat Sep 09, 2017 14:33

I know it's not diminishing returns in the strict sense, that's why I said in terms of relative increase. I actually run msp and fbi fairly frequently without an AC/DC, when running as a paladin. Especially for msp, I've come to think that it might actually be preferable to run with a templock instead of an AC/DC. Why? Compared to extra healing, way more dps and SW buffs, 80k powershare that won't stay up consistently is just not that much. As an OP I can share 60k power resulting in the group cruising along at 140-160k power, an AC/DC can give perhaps an average of 30% dps increase since keeping up AA is very difficult.

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Re: Why the Bonding Runestone Nerf Makes Sense, Yet is Still Infuriating

Post by PutzBoy78 » Sun Sep 10, 2017 15:12

Yeah but its the spike damage people mostly want. When trash dies in 1-2 hits the method isn't that important but certainly a flat 30% increase (not even counting the multiplicative nature of buffs) can prove pretty valuable.

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