PC What's Wrong With Random Queues?

What does not belong in any other section does probably belong here.
User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:30

I'd like to dive into the topic of random queues next week and could need a little help understanding what people are so upset about.

What I get:
  • Stronghold Shards being an issue for < 10k
  • Having to have all dungeons unlocked sucks for some
  • For high-level accounts it's now substantially harder to achieve the AD numbers of Mod 12
All right so these are legit issues, but imho don't justify the outcry. What I personally feel is that most players simply haven't found a way to properly utilize the queue. I would solo into normal dungeon and skirmish and then build a premade for epic and trial. If you approach it this way there should be little drama, right?

Also: Has anybody figured out how the leave vote works? Is it available right at the start of a dungeon and is there any limitation to use it?

Would be nice if you could share the sentiment of yourself, your guild and your alliance.

Cheers!
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

PutzBoy78
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 16:41
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by PutzBoy78 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 16:25

queue is no big deal, as you mentioned solo q normal and skirm, premade epic and trial. Obviously using random queue for tong is no bueno... but that's the price you pay for wanting to run a meta/near meta group (who by the way are probably not going to care about a few K RAD. The new system is faster since one run nets you more ADs than before. If you get a bad dungeon, leave do something else, come again later. They will learn which dungeons are being constantly abandoned.

The vote abandon requires you stay in the dungeon for 15m

Janne
Posts: 254
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 05:28
Favorite Class: Trickster Rogue
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by Janne » Sun Oct 29, 2017 16:46

Numbers are from memory, so it needs verification

1. In a guild / group one could shuffle alts for etos x2, this nets +- 25k? AD, with even bellow 10k IL alts, as long as the group is arranged properly and in rotation. Now such alt is limited to leveling dungeons -> 3 people, 5k? AD (no salvage) And a skirmish 5kAD (some have salvage) and you get one daily bonus for RQ for 3,5k ? So same time, less AD. Or more time for the long leveling dungeons due to walking time. Also with merchants folly can't run skirmishes until unlock. Yes, it's not life and death, but it adds up.

2. A group that can do FBI/ SP in a 'meta' composition can't queue RQ for epic dungeons, as it forces 3 DPS, Tank, Healer. This also forces templocks and DPS GFs into slots. So, a group of people that can do the dungeons in 'meta' way have lower chance to finish it due to those composition requirements. And still have a chance to end up in SP while aim for t2 levels.

3. Adds to #1, campaign keys, people who don't run t1, skirmishes, don't have the campaign keys, and no way to use one currency for other same 'value' keys. (Not worth to waste legendary keys there anyway)

Edit:
4. To add to #2, this breaks the natural progress, normally you will be doing t1, get gear, repeat for salvage for AD for buyable stuff, get stronger do t2 get gear and better salvage, then progress to end game CN, then FBI/SP, then Tomb. You get stronger and stronger, learn the class, and the dungeons get harder too. It's not perfect but it's at least in concept correct.
Now the progress is broken, you supposed to get to 11k IL And you can get randomized into SP instead of MC. So either you go back to leveling dungeons for progress (actual regression in content) or you gamble.
Last edited by Janne on Sun Oct 29, 2017 17:02, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Sun Oct 29, 2017 16:51

Key typo in the op: "For high-level accounts it's not substantially harder to achieve the AD numbers of Mod 12" changed to "For high-level accounts it's now substantially harder to achieve the AD numbers of Mod 12"
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

Daze
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 15:25
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Trickster Rogue
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by Daze » Sun Oct 29, 2017 18:06

Main Problem is for new 70/ 70 alts low-geared.

No access to T1 then T2 in RQ for them = low progress, less AD.

BUT, add to this : need 10K ilvl for skirmiches, so, fresh 70 and low-geared alts can only do 3-man dungeons, again, and again, for DA and seals.

AND no skirmishes ? no epic dungeon ? Guess what, your are useless for your guild if you don't have time, or if they don't want to do others runs than RQ runs.

Message for me is : you can make DA and help your guild if you are already Geared, or if your are not 70. Between those 2 situations, you need time, a lot of time. Oh, you don't want to wait weeks, or month to play with others ? You don't want to take weeks or month for accumulate DA and unlock campaign-lock dungeons ? Guess what, zenmarket have solutions for that. And Guess what, there is a recharge promo event who come soon.

MrObvious
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 21:47
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by MrObvious » Sun Oct 29, 2017 22:06

Never had an account for this site but made one just for this. Biggest problem with random ques (and 12b in general) is player population and guild participation in general is dropping fast. To be fair there are other factors in play. (New games coming out, football season in NA, holidays approaching) but the hard fact remains that player numbers and hours spent in game are dropping. I still like this game, but dont have much interest in sticking around if most of my friends move on and my guild becomes a ghost town.
Full disclosure time and the big plot twist-
I play neverwinter on PS4. We dont even have 12b yet. Our guild has been losing people since cryptic announced these changes were coming. My guild is still advancing but at a much slower pace since before the announcement. Im not sure what it will look like after 12b goes live here. And im not really sure what my interest level will be when it does.

Tl:dr- people are leaving and its killing player interest in the game.

PutzBoy78
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 16:41
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by PutzBoy78 » Sun Oct 29, 2017 23:01

Getting 10K is super easy and certainly doesn't take weeks.

Guild boons = 1500
Elemental evil boons while leveling = 120
Tyrnanny of dragons boons while leveling = 120
Chult weapons = 930
Drowcraft Underwear = 810
Enchants = 27*18 = 486
Companion = 10* 5 = 50
Mount + Insignia = 80*5 = 400
Artifacts = 94*4 = 376
Armor = 400*13 = 5200

That's 9992 and can be done in a few days. The bigger discussions is around if ilvls fit content. The challenge is if they update the queues so that if your ilvl is below a certain point you don't get stuck in msp or fbi from random queue, people will just take off gear to queue and avoid these long dungeons.

Daze
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 15:25
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Trickster Rogue
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by Daze » Mon Oct 30, 2017 00:57

PutzBoy78 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 23:01
Getting 10K is super easy and certainly doesn't take weeks.

Guild boons = 1500
Elemental evil boons while leveling = 120
Tyrnanny of dragons boons while leveling = 120
Chult weapons = 930
Drowcraft Underwear = 810
Enchants = 27*18 = 486
Companion = 10* 5 = 50
Mount + Insignia = 80*5 = 400
Artifacts = 94*4 = 376
Armor = 400*13 = 5200

That's 9992 and can be done in a few days.
With all my respect, clearly not for all players.

All guilds don't have boons, many try to progress to have those boons.
Campaigns boons take more than "few days". Maybe for an alt when you have an advanced main with patronage system, but a recent player who have a job, a family ? few days when you can play 2-3 hours a day ?

Sure it's easy when you are a veteran, you know how the game works, what to do, when to do it, whith who. But, guess what ? my guildmates are not veterans, because our veterans are gone, mod after mod. Even me, i left, then i'm back again.

And i have to grind 3 mods of boring content just to have the right of earning few AD and guild ressources, even with my 14K main that i played for years since beta. Great. I'll pass.

At this rate, my boys fresh 70 will be 10K in, maybe, 1 month, in time for black friday. And then ? How many time to reach 11K and unlock fbi and SpellP ?

Random Q is a great idea, i'm in favor of content variation and, if it was just an ilvl question, i could have deal with it, just buy enchants, gear and rp for my friends, so they can run whith me. But ilvl lock + campaign lock + all the epic dungeons in the same random Q ?

No, Thanks. I will run dungeons with guildies and friends without ad reward, i will just play a lot less than expected, and wait for the next mod.

PutzBoy78
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 16:41
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by PutzBoy78 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 01:21

but those boons are easy to get, finding a GH20 with max boons that will let in new lvl70s is very easy at this point... well atleast on PC, i can't speak to consoles who yet to have this release anyway

The campaign boons are listed are the ones you should get while leveling, i did not list all campaign boons, simply the ones from EE (lvl 60-70) and the first three from tyranny. I'm pretty sure you can still get Sharandar first boon with just formorian concoctions which makes it not time gated either and I didn't list it.

But when you qualify a recent player, then that becomes the nexus of the problem and the central theme in all such discussions. How to define time. It's a F2P game, you pay with time or you pay with RL$. You want it faster, you put a full day into the game, you play after the kids go to bed, you slog through a couple of days with 4 hours of sleep. If you can't put in some extra time as an investment, then yes you are going to have to open your wallet.

And yes its easy for a veteran to see it, a veteran you get when you join established guilds, which loops back to point one.

And your right to point out that random queue is not necessary, just do runs and salvage, heck some of the most profitable activities in the game don't involve dungeons at all.

PutzBoy78
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 16:41
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by PutzBoy78 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 01:50

let's not forget that we are not that far removed from mod 6, where we farmed bosses for seals because we couldn't finish dungeons without leveraging an exploit. So while now you may think getting AD is difficult from dungeons, we are a far sight better than we were then when we farming seals only, no dungeon reward, no salvage reward from chests, just the occasional drop from etos boss 1 & 2.

chemjeff
Posts: 46
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 00:09
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Great Weapon Fighter
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by chemjeff » Mon Oct 30, 2017 05:30

j0Shi wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:30
I'd like to dive into the topic of random queues next week and could need a little help understanding what people are so upset about.

What I get:
  • Stronghold Shards being an issue for < 10k
  • Having to have all dungeons unlocked sucks for some
  • For high-level accounts it's now substantially harder to achieve the AD numbers of Mod 12
All right so these are legit issues, but imho don't justify the outcry. What I personally feel is that most players simply haven't found a way to properly utilize the queue. I would solo into normal dungeon and skirmish and then build a premade for epic and trial. If you approach it this way there should be little drama, right?

Also: Has anybody figured out how the leave vote works? Is it available right at the start of a dungeon and is there any limitation to use it?

Would be nice if you could share the sentiment of yourself, your guild and your alliance.

Cheers!
I would say, the biggest problem is that new players are the ones hurt the most by this change.

Daze
Posts: 141
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2015 15:25
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Trickster Rogue
Preferred Gametype: PVP

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by Daze » Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:07

PutzBoy78 wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 01:21
but those boons are easy to get, finding a GH20 with max boons that will let in new lvl70s is very easy at this point... well atleast on PC, i can't speak to consoles who yet to have this release anyway

The campaign boons are listed are the ones you should get while leveling, i did not list all campaign boons, simply the ones from EE (lvl 60-70) and the first three from tyranny. I'm pretty sure you can still get Sharandar first boon with just formorian concoctions which makes it not time gated either and I didn't list it.

But when you qualify a recent player, then that becomes the nexus of the problem and the central theme in all such discussions. How to define time. It's a F2P game, you pay with time or you pay with RL$. You want it faster, you put a full day into the game, you play after the kids go to bed, you slog through a couple of days with 4 hours of sleep. If you can't put in some extra time as an investment, then yes you are going to have to open your wallet.

And yes its easy for a veteran to see it, a veteran you get when you join established guilds, which loops back to point one.

And your right to point out that random queue is not necessary, just do runs and salvage, heck some of the most profitable activities in the game don't involve dungeons at all.
You know, joining one of the big guilds who don't speak your language, with players that you don't know well, just for boons, it's not really the easyest of funiest thing (sorry for my poor english) in my point of view.

I'm totally agree with "less time -> spend more money, more time -> spend less money". But, before the update, i could take my guildies, do a CN, or an ETOS, or another, have fun, AND have a decent reward, AND all of us could help the guild, even if they have only 1 hour of available playtime.

Now, they have to chose.

The game looks more and more like a job., You can't just be free and have fun, well you can, but you are less rewarded for "playing", you are rewarded for "working".

I left§/stop progress at the release of SKT, now i have to do SKT, Cloaked Ass, and Chult to have the possibility to help my guild at least as much than before.

How many time with an average 4 hours/day, 5 day a week to achieve that ?

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:34

chemjeff wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 05:30
I would say, the biggest problem is that new players are the ones hurt the most by this change.
Is it just the Stronghold Shards thing or something else as well? Because on most of my really low lowbies I was running two leveling dungeons per day and am now able to make approximately the same with the normal dungeon random queue.

Are there really so many toons that could do 2x ETOS / ESOT per day and now either struggle with the epic/trial queue or don't meet the requirements? I'm asking because the system was actually supposed to help lower item levels.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:40

PutzBoy78 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 23:01
That's 9992 and can be done in a few days. The bigger discussions is around if ilvls fit content.
I think that's one of the obstacles. Even if you meet the minimum requirements of the queue it doesn't mean you can beat all the content of a queue comfortably, or at all. So you might still be effectively locked out although you're not.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:45

Janne wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 16:46
Numbers are from memory, so it needs verification

1. In a guild / group one could shuffle alts for etos x2, this nets +- 25k? AD, with even bellow 10k IL alts, as long as the group is arranged properly and in rotation. Now such alt is limited to leveling dungeons -> 3 people, 5k? AD (no salvage) And a skirmish 5kAD (some have salvage) and you get one daily bonus for RQ for 3,5k ? So same time, less AD. Or more time for the long leveling dungeons due to walking time. Also with merchants folly can't run skirmishes until unlock. Yes, it's not life and death, but it adds up.

2. A group that can do FBI/ SP in a 'meta' composition can't queue RQ for epic dungeons, as it forces 3 DPS, Tank, Healer. This also forces templocks and DPS GFs into slots. So, a group of people that can do the dungeons in 'meta' way have lower chance to finish it due to those composition requirements. And still have a chance to end up in SP while aim for t2 levels.

3. Adds to #1, campaign keys, people who don't run t1, skirmishes, don't have the campaign keys, and no way to use one currency for other same 'value' keys. (Not worth to waste legendary keys there anyway)

Edit:
4. To add to #2, this breaks the natural progress, normally you will be doing t1, get gear, repeat for salvage for AD for buyable stuff, get stronger do t2 get gear and better salvage, then progress to end game CN, then FBI/SP, then Tomb. You get stronger and stronger, learn the class, and the dungeons get harder too. It's not perfect but it's at least in concept correct.
Now the progress is broken, you supposed to get to 11k IL And you can get randomized into SP instead of MC. So either you go back to leveling dungeons for progress (actual regression in content) or you gamble.
Valid stuff. I don't mind #2 as much in terms of "meta" play, but broken progression since you no longer move up the dungeon tiers is an interesting point.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:54

I'd like to throw another aspect into the discussion: Rewards balance. This has been haunting the dungeon system for a while know. People always felt FBI and mSP had too little to offer for their length. The devs kind of reasoned that it's justified because the content nets you the latest gear as additional incentive. But now that you are forced to run them as part of AD generation this no longer is a valid point.

I also find it substantially harder to plan your runs. The epic dungeon queue could mean anything from 5 to 45 minutes, which is not great for players operating with limited playtime.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by beckylunatic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 15:47

The new player bonus has been received very favourably (although we knew that was going to happen).

There were many reports of people saying they'd been sitting in a random queue for hours without it popping. I don't know if they were trying to do trials/pvp/accord, as I did not query.
"no logs, only fix"

User avatar
j0Shi
Site Admin
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2014 16:25
Gender: male

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by j0Shi » Mon Oct 30, 2017 16:11

I normally sit in the epic dungeon queue with a DPS while doing dailies. It has yet to pop since launch although the estimated waiting time normally shows below five minutes for me.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

PutzBoy78
Posts: 1329
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2015 16:41
Gender: male
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by PutzBoy78 » Mon Oct 30, 2017 17:02

j0Shi wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:40
PutzBoy78 wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 23:01
That's 9992 and can be done in a few days. The bigger discussions is around if ilvls fit content.
I think that's one of the obstacles. Even if you meet the minimum requirements of the queue it doesn't mean you can beat all the content of a queue comfortably, or at all. So you might still be effectively locked out although you're not.
These arguments confuse me. In one hand people are saying that the problem is earning shards for their guild with the new queue because they can't do random epics (everyone can get shards from random skirmishes for 70 shards a week). On the other people are complaining they can't do daily 2xESOT/2xETOS which only netted 20 shards a week.

I've had no problems getting skirm and norm dungeon pops on my alts, even yesterday i random queued epics dungeon on amber, got etos, cleric bonus, and new player bonus. Was a 9 minute run and netted 15K RAD. That sure don't hurt :)

User avatar
beckylunatic
Posts: 2025
Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2015 17:30
Favorite Class: Devoted Cleric
Preferred Gametype: PVE

Re: What's Wrong With Random Queues?

Post by beckylunatic » Mon Oct 30, 2017 17:13

Many players claim they routinely accepted all the SH Cleric's quests during the week and knocked them out on the weekend. Obviously they weren't getting bonus AD on all of those, but it allowed banking quests, which the new system does not, and allowed planning your time effectively, which the new system does not.
"no logs, only fix"

Post Reply