DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

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awrex1977
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DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by awrex1977 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 19:07

1st time poster, assuming this is safe to discuss here...

DC Power stacking which when a bunch of DCs get together basically breaks the game code math. Assuming this has to be viewed as an exploit, granted a situational exploit.

Or does this fall somewhere short of exploit and simply not working as intended?

Question is, how long until this get's fixed - it's not exactly game breaking considering it is very situational, but IMO is certainly not WAI.

A much larger issue IMO is Companions, Bonding Runestones, and Companion's Gifts - I use them, so I'm as guilty as the next guy, that said...

Companion's Gifts - Bonding Runestones - this is a bit trickier - as far as I know, the only way for Bonding stones to exist in game is through the Zen shop, be it purchased companions or companion chests, sure you can use AD to convert to Zen to buy Keys or to snag bonding stones off of the AH, but paper trail (so to speak) always leads back to $$ that initially introduced the stones to the game & economy.

With the way the procs can stack - which is frankly absurd - for example an Epic Air Archon, which is fairly accessible through the AH (on XBox at least) "naked" companion with 3 perfect bonding stones on it at 5 stacks increases power by over 14K, add in something as easily obtainable as Elven Assault rings x2, necklace, and 3 rank 7 radiants - power spikes to 19532, crit to 6517, ArP to 2038, recovery to 4489, literally, from 0 stats to over 32K in stats without equipping a thing on a toon...

I cannot imagine this is WAI, issue is, unlike other items in game, these (Bonding Runestones) would never have existed in game without being purchsaed from the cash shop, thus IMO being very much a P2W aspect of NW. Nerfing/fixing these, unlike changes to the Lostmauth set or Class powers - which are available to everyone without spending a dollar is a slippery slope IMO.

So the question is, when/if companions/bonding stones get hit with the nerf bat, how do you think it will be handled?

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by two31 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 19:16

awrex1977 wrote:DC Power stacking which when a bunch of DCs get together basically breaks the game code math. Assuming this has to be viewed as an exploit, granted a situational exploit.

Or does this fall somewhere short of exploit and simply not working as intended?
There was a youtube video of DCs 1-shotting Tiamat heads. Abusing the power loop in such a manner is absolutely 100% ban-worthy. The thread is still up on the forums, but the video has since been made private. http://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/never ... n/1215328/

awrex1977
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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by awrex1977 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 19:23

Yeah, I saw that earlier in a different thread that has since been removed (part of the reason I posted this here).

A thread on the reddit NW sub also removed about the same thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/co ... f_clerics/

Posted on the reddit thread (XBox testing)

https://www.twitch.tv/zelink/v/62120180

So this has to be considered an exploit I'm assuming?

Question then is, how is this fix handled?

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by beckylunatic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 19:53

Well... the most the devs can likely do is hard-cap stats, which maybe defies their intent of not having caps on stats (per se), but if the system was designed to only be able to go up to figures still in a 5-digit range, but they've built in things that can loop it so much higher, setting a cap would fix all possible loops, instead of having to fix and correct every individual thing that creates a loop.

As for the seriousness of the issue, consider a couple of things.

This isn't so objectively different than the Scourge Warlock challenge to meet at the Trade of Blades and see who could score the biggest Killing Flames hit with everyone using the feat Dark Revelry, which also stacks power. The SW challenge was done on preview so that everyone could spec into Dark Revelry, since it's on the Temptation path which is unpopular in the current meta.

This is people trying out what is possible within the bounds of the game. Does it mean that now mobs of 25 DCs will be one-shotting Tiamat on an hourly basis? Does it mean 40 DCs will be grouping for Heralds? Are they? I have no idea, but I actually wouldn't bet my life on it. The ability to abuse this particular loop is greatly limited by content in which it is possible to have that many people all fighting the same thing at once, and on finding that many people playing a DC who want to abuse it. It can't loop as high as that in a dungeon, skirmish, or even Demogorgon, because you don't have enough players.

So while it 's being treated as serious enough to tamp down, and keep from getting around extensively while they (presumably) work on fixing it, it's also something that is not devastating to the game. The Orcus bug could be exploited by one person, requiring cooperation from nobody else. This bug/glitch/unintended interaction requires the cooperation of as many DCs as you can pack into an instance, all specced into Weapons of Light. While it was discoverable on the type of all-one-class Tiamat run that's been going on as an experiment, many of the participants in that type of run likely have no interest in making a routine abuse of the interaction, or making multiple all-DC Tiamat runs now that they've satisfied their curiosity about how it would play out.
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awrex1977
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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by awrex1977 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 20:03

Agree that impact in terms of game play is minimal due to the limited instances where it can be applied.

Agree that it is not on the level of the Orcus set issue.

So I guess I kind of answered my own question, not really an exploit, but obviously not working as intended.

Suppose I'm just curious as to how this would/will be addressed.

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by PutzBoy78 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 20:20

I'm appalled that anyone would be involved in such a thing.

Seriously though, calling it an exploit is absurd.

1) To be an exploit it has to be used to derive a benefit from it. As far as I'm aware no one is farming it. You would see a drastic decline in prices on tiamat loot if it was working. Not sure what that would be, dragon bags and queen books maybe? I don't know what would get farmed since tiamat is basically a waste of time anyhow.

2) Think you have trouble getting a dc for your dungeon. Consider the challenge of getting 25 dcs with minimum ilvls and similar feats. DC is not like the one trick pony classes, they are flexible and allow for creativity in build. This is why each dc can play the game entirely different.

3) It's not lopping, its stacking. It actually does settle on a number. If it was a loop a much smaller group could create the same result

4) The people involved had ran every dungeon in the game as full dc parties. They were looking to stake a claim on edemo and tiamat. Fyi 10 DC's cannot duplicate this effect, so edemo is at full difficulty with 10 DCs. I've done a 10 DC edemo, it took the full time to get gold. If you've ran edemo with me you know I'm typically top 3 in paingiver and have gotten gold as the top paingiver many times but its a lot more painful that way. The result they found was unexpected in tiamat. It was documented and was not hidden away to be exploited.

I would say its working as intended, 10% power shared with anyone within 30'. The outcome may not have been intended but since no dev's play a dc and no dev's no how a dc works, it probably never occurred to them that DC fanboys would party up and try to conquer content within their own class. That's also why DC's have the same mechanics broken since beta. Nobody at cryptic plays DC and the only time they look at the DC is when someone cries nerf (like the hastening light bug in mod 6).


FYI - Bonding stones littered the game not from Zen market (well partially from ZEN market), but a lot came into the game from winter events as these stones come on some of the companion drops from the gifts. At one point lesser bonding stones were the cheapest RP in the game. Thus having bonding is not P2W.

Bonding stones must outperform augment to a large degree to make up for their unpredictability. If you think the stacks of bonding are not WAI then you obviously haven't noticed how many demons and warlocks are running around. Making non-augment companions use-able has been a big source of income for crypitc. The only part I would say is not WAI is that the mix bonding stones produce more stacks of bonding than having all the same bonding stones. With mix set you can get up to 9 stacks of bonding, with the same set you get up to 5 but 2-3 is much more realistic.

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by beckylunatic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 20:33

I am pretty sure Sean McCann (commanderander) plays a DC, maybe even mains it, but he's a quest designer, not a combat designer.
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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by Daze » Fri Apr 22, 2016 20:36

It's a very situational abuse, so a fix will not come soon.

And, for Bondings.. from a not rich pc player point of view, it's not a "fairly accessible" option. For outperforming Augments, you need a pet who deal significant damages and fast proç CG and good slots.

"Air Archon", on pc, purple is 500k+, and perfect bondings are 1M+/runestone. A naked purple Air Archon with perfect bondings give you something like 5k+ power with 5 stacks ( and it's not like if you have 5 stack all the time ), 12k+ with elven rings/neck/r7 with 5 stacks... for 3.5M+ DA.

The problem is overstack and % bonus from R11/12 stones. Was fine before EE. But maybe they will reduce the % of proc.

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by beckylunatic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 20:50

Bondings have been accessible on a budget if you got in on them early (before they exploded), or are very patient.

And they perform alright if you just use a companion you like that isn't a complete slowpoke.

Of course spending millions to have something RIGHTFUCKINGNOW isn't budget friendly, and certainly Cryptic banks on having a certain playerbase that always has to have everything RIGHTFUCKINGNOW.

But if you pace yourself, you can accomplish a lot without paying through the nose for it.
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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by Sharpedge » Fri Apr 22, 2016 20:55

Blink dog costs nothing on green and there is no particular reason to upgrade it higher, if you just want it for the proc speed.

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by awrex1977 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 21:23

PutzBoy78 wrote: Bonding stones must outperform augment to a large degree to make up for their unpredictability. If you think the stacks of bonding are not WAI then you obviously haven't noticed how many demons and warlocks are running around.
That's actually my point (on XBox it's the mercenary), similar in many ways to the Lostmauth set - they are everywhere because they (companions loaded with bonding stones) out preform the "competition" by such extraordinary amounts.

If that was the intent of the game's developers, then they are WAI.

Personally, I don't think the intent was to allow a multiple stacks to preform like this...

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by j0Shi » Fri Apr 22, 2016 21:31

http://neverwinterindex.blogspot.com/20 ... voted.html

This post has a video which shows the one-shots.
"This information is not official and is not supported by PWE. This content was removed from the official neverwinter forums because it provides information that is potentially false and sheds a negative light on unpublished and unknown drop rates within the game." -melodywhr

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by Daze » Fri Apr 22, 2016 21:54

For bondings..My point is : if overstack is fixed, bondings are not so much overpowered if you have a decent budget, numbers become crazy if you have too many diamonds.

And i don't talk about real money, i play since beta, for old and/or opportunist players, there is no need to invest money in this game but..

There is a world between a green blink dog with perfect bondings, loyal gear and R7-9 enchants who give you a decent amount of stats regarding the amount gived by an augment with the same budget ( before Goat, of course )... and a Legendary Merc with R12 bondings + adorable gear ( note : "Girdle of Adorable Bites" is not available in game, just in database, but not available, and Merc, for pc players, is not obtainable out of a special offer ) + R12 enchants who give you 20k power for...10M+ AD.

How many diamonds need your character to reach 20k power ?

Is it needed in a game where a 3k team can rush all the content without dying and without any difficult ? NO. Is it WAI ? If overstack is fixed, Yes, i think.

Unlike this DC Army Power...

But, hey, they finally fix the eLol set bonus. Maybe next year this will be fixed.

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by beckylunatic » Sat Apr 23, 2016 02:23

I agree that I'm doubtful that people would be going out of their way to exploit this because of the extremity of the circumstances under which it can occur, and the very limited potential for profiting from it, but that doesn't mean that Cryptic wouldn't treat it as an exploit and attempt to monitor for people abusing it going forward.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by beckylunatic » Sat Apr 23, 2016 02:40

Incidentally, the community mods do get directives from Cryptic as to what's to be treated as an exploit and all references tidied away. So if you see all the threads about something like this disappear, you can be pretty sure it's from on high.
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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by JayAgeDee » Sat Apr 23, 2016 02:55

I am so unsure what to think about cryptic. On the one hand their game is just really fun, I enjoy Neverwinter.

On the other hand they are doing do many things worse than other companies (I can't help but compare everyone to Riot games).

Though their most recent activity has been promising...
"Riders of Neverwinter! What news on Preview?"

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by rapo973 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 06:30

As the OP of the DC channel post, it has been moved and I was informed privately that the contents are now under "investigation" by the devs.

Here a piece of my reply:
"The interaction between 25 DCs is something that was not foreseen and I assume not even tested before.
I have 2 requests if I may:
1) such extreme interactions should be fixed, but the basic capability should be as it is today. Please consider that 25 DCs playing togheter is an extreme and rare case. Finding 25 clerics is a difficult and time consuming task. In a "normal group", such buffs are needed, after the latest changes in particular.
2) it's my intention to open again a thread to promote the in-game DC_channel only. After the lastest changes, it's quite used to exchange points of view, share info and help each other. DCs runs will be out of scope."

I was adviced to avoid starting new topic because, after the investigation, it's likely the it will come back without the "exploited contents".
Last edited by rapo973 on Sun Apr 24, 2016 13:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by PutzBoy78 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 07:00

Since i was obviously there:

1) I was one of the key people who put it together recruiting heavily from my channels, lfg in WoD, PE, and Mantol-Derith
2) I didn't recruit based on feats, I was simply looking to do something that has never been done before, which was having 25 clerics attempt to defeat tiamat.
3) I didn't recruit based on ilvl, my recruiting messages was simply LFXM DCs for an all DC tiamat run
4) There were two runs at this. The first time we split up and it took two full rounds to take down tiamat. I was in a team of 7 people so the power bonus was minimal. While we noticed the power creep while standing on the base waiting to start, it never occurred to us to stay together to mega hit tiamat. Instead we split up so we wouldn't miss out on buffs/debuffs that do not stack.
5) The second run was the one you've seen in the video, where we wanted to see what would happen if we didn't separate. That's when we were all "wow this is awesome"

As far as exploiting goes, I have all my tiamat boons. I farmed them in mod 5 (syncd entry) like most of the older players. I get asked regularly to do tiamat with guildies and in channels because right dc debuffs are awesome and my dps while not epic means you don't have to sacrifice on individual dps to have in party. i don't go because tiamat's rewards are trash and even to get a decent reward you need to enter when the coffer is full and have a key. It's a joke and a major time suck when i can run a couple of etos in the same timeframe for better rewards.

BTW the first solo DC completion of lostmauth recently happened (not me), it took 2.5 hours. So for those who think DC can do anything. The truth is they can but they cannot do everything. DC can be a tank if built for it, but DPS and heals suffer, DC can be an extreme healer but dps and tankiness suffer, and dc can do decent dps but tankiness and heals suffer. GWF/GF/CW have all solo'd elol months ago and with much much shorter run times. So yes a DC can do anything it just can't do everything and that's why the putz that used to have 7 actively played characters who got tired of trying to keep multiple characters current with all of the rp sinks introduced in the game finally settled on DC only in mod 6. It gives me the flexibility to play how i want and i can change it when i want :-)

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by PutzBoy78 » Sat Apr 23, 2016 07:10

rapo973 wrote: 2) it's my intention to open again a thread to promote the in-game DC_channel only
Yeah i had this conversation with the mods also. Pointing out that the DC community needs a place to communicate because we seldom get to interact in normal game play. Unlike dps classes who get to constantly throw their junk on the table and compare inches. DCs mostly operate in silo's without being able to truly benchmark and compare theorycraft.

Also it should be noted that half the chatter in that channel is social in nature (Good Morning, Good Night, How's everyone doing) and another quarter of it is comparing transmutes, lol. Since joining the channel at it inception like 6 months ago I have completed 1 edemo, 2 tiamats, and 1 CN from groups built in the channel. Most of the time the channel is not active enough to have a two way conversation, :-) but I do try to engage with people on it whenever possible.

The idea of not being able to talk about the channel in the forums is ridiculous. If they don't like a piece of content I could see mod's screwing with it (never stopped them before), but blocking the channel from being mentioned because it may form groups would stand to reason that you shouldn't be able to mention any channels on the forums or guilds (because we all know there are guilds that specialize in real exploiting).

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Re: DC Power stacking & Companion's Gifts

Post by kamaliicious » Sat Apr 23, 2016 11:52

PutzBoy78 wrote:
rapo973 wrote:
The idea of not being able to talk about the channel in the forums is ridiculous. If they don't like a piece of content I could see mod's screwing with it (never stopped them before), but blocking the channel from being mentioned because it may form groups would stand to reason that you shouldn't be able to mention any channels on the forums
cough /legit cough, but that's the mods own baby channel so ...

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